Kern on with several masters

Post Reply
cdeliason
Posts: 2
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Kern on with several masters

Post by cdeliason »

Can you say more about how Kern On works now (or eventually will work) with fonts with multiple masters? Is the work in setting up models in one weight leveraged for establishing kerning in the others?
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

Good question! Multiple masters will be one of the topics of my more in-depth video next week.

If you have multiple masters:
  • The un-kerned pairs you set during start-up are set as zero-models in all masters (to be precise, during this stage, models may be removed if they contradict, without any notification).
  • Special spacing groups (or the “No kerning” selection) is always the same for all masters. I think realistically, that’s what you always want, and it simplifies the UI. Note that the amount of special spacing is determined for each master independently.
  • Models and independent pairs (and their values) are strictly separate for the masters. Also, when autokerning, KO uses only the master’s own models. There is no cross-master influence.
  • To transfer models between masters, you can show the list of models (using the little arrow) and activate the other master. Then select the pairs you want and switch them to models.
Hope this helps for now!
cdeliason
Posts: 2
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by cdeliason »

It does, thanks. Very excited about this software!
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

Good!

There is one more MM-related feature I forgot:
  • If you have a font with an interpolatable master (like the regular master in a set-up with light, regular and bold masters) then you will find “Interpolate master kerning” in the gear menu next to the “Compare to” button. The kerning for that master will be interpolated from the others, simply by interpolating the values, without even looking at the glyph shapes. This is done when you finalize the kerning, so there is not preview of the interpolated kerning.
Gini
Posts: 18
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Gini »

Does it make sense to have an option like a "copy kerning from other master" button?
Maybe an option just like the "Interpolate kerning".

I'm thinking about it because of a file where I have romans and obliques together, and since the obliques have the same width and sidebearings, kerning will also be the same or very similar.
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

I will explain that in some detail in an upcoming video but here’s a quick answer:

To transfer the models from one master to the other, I’d recommend to:
  • Activate the destination master.
  • Click on the little arrow next to the models counter (at the bottom of the Kern On palette) to show the list of models.
  • Select all (when the text tool is active).
  • Switch all models to auto pairs using the KO palette.
  • Activate the source master.
  • Show the list of models.
  • Switch to the destination master.
  • First switch only the zero pairs to models using the KO palette.
  • Switch all other pairs to models.
This will not transfer the values of the non-zero models but you will get the same models as in the other master. By first switching only the zero models the other, non-zero models will usually have sensible values but it’s better to check them, of course.

That said, I do have on my to-do list, at least as an idea, to add this to the gear menu.
Gini
Posts: 18
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Gini »

Thanks, Tim!
I understand, and it works.

I just thought that maybe including a buttom to copy from other master, the plugin would have "less work" copying an entire table with groups and values rather than "rethinking" every kerning pair and group in a master, just to get to similar results. I'm not familiar with programming though, so I may be thinking in a way that doesn't fit the functioning of it.

On the other hand, as a user, it would be much more simple and quick to just define a master to "clone" another.
:)
Malou
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Malou »

Hello!
Really enjoying my experience with KO so far!
Just a quick question, I have a two axis setup with two interpolated "regular" and I only seem to be able to set one regular master to "Interpolate master kerning". It's greyed out in the second. Is it not currently possible to set more than one?
Thanks!
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

Thanks, Malou! Good to know the “Interpolate master kerning” feature is being used.

You can only use this feature on masters that can be interpolated. For example, if you have a font with only two masters, it will be greyed out for both masters from the beginning. I always found it strange that Glyphs offers you “Re-interpolate” (which is practically the same idea) and then does weird things. Instead, Kern On determines whether master is truly interpolatable, depending on the axes and the other masters’ co-ordinates.

After you set one master as interpolated in KO, it cannot be an interpolation source for other masters any more, so it is quite likely that other masters in the font are no longer interpolatable. This is not literally a limit of one interpolatable master but in many fonts, depending on the set-up of the masters, it may be so effectively, if it is simply impossible to interpolate an additional master.

Could you tell us the co-ordinates of the masters in your font? Then we can have a look at whether it is really impossible to interpolate more than one masters, as KO suggests.
Malou
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Malou »

Thanks for this answer Tim!

From my understanding both Regular masters should be independently interpolatable (since they are on an opposite "edge" of the design space…).

It's a Opt size / weight design space :
Display Thin = 24 / 150
Display Regular = 24 / 400
Display Black = 24 / 900
Micro Thin = 6 / 150
Micro Regular = 6 / 400
Micro Black = 6 / 900
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

You are right, Display Regular and Micro Regular should be interpolatable at the same time. Would you mind sending me the file? Also: Which Glyphs version do you use?
Malou
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Malou »

G3. Sending you the file via email!
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

This should be fixed in today’s update, version 0.9b20. As it turned out, programmatically setting several disabled masters for an instance needs an array of master names, not a line-break-separated text like in the UI.

Thanks for your feedback!
Malou
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 Apr 2021

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Malou »

Merci Tim!
User avatar
Tim Ahrens
Site Admin
Posts: 164
Joined: 11 Jul 2019

Re: Kern on with several masters

Post by Tim Ahrens »

FWIW, just posted a new video dedicated to working with multiple masters.
Post Reply