Kern On

SCarewe

Remove the userData key "KernOnModels" for the master. Also, remove "KernOnSpecialSpacing" for all glyphs (this sets the groups). Then restart Kern On. Other relevant keys: Master-level: KernOnIndependentPairs, KernOnUserSetAutopairs, KernOnIsInterpolated, KernOnAutokernedFrom Gl...

SCarewe

This isn't explicitly possible as you describe it. What you can do is set one side of the superiors to "no kerning", which will disable all kerning between superiors, but keep kerning on one side of the superiors with all other glyphs. Otherwise, enumerate all superior combinations and add...

SCarewe

Which pairs are you talking about? dollar–[number], euro–[number]? Indeed these are incorrect ways of using these currencies, and I can't imagine anybody writes euro–[number]. I have never seen this.

SCarewe

You want to keep both in the same kerning group, but generate different kerning, without using exceptions? Why?

Put them into separate kerning groups, like Kern On does.

SCarewe

In what cases do you need superior to lowercase kerning?

If you want to force auto kerning for these pairs, you need to add them as user-set autokern pairs (if you script this, set it in GSFontMaster.userData["KernOnUserSetAutopairs"]).

SCarewe

You need to copy two things: The kerning (which Kern On uses in order to know the values for the models) and the models. Internally, the models are just a list of glyph name pairs, like: ["A H", "hyphen one", "H period"]. Kern On then looks at the actual kerning values ...

SCarewe

There isn't really a clean way. I would use a script. What exactly do you mean by "copy Kern On data"? What data do you want transferred, and how? You can't just copy the models without setting values, or rather, if you do, Kern On will (rightfully) complain that you have lots of contradic...

SCarewe

As I wrote above: I had set special spacing for my ligatures. Set it to Standard Kerning, and check that you have no special spacing set anywhere you don't explicitly want it.

SCarewe

Keyboard shortcuts generally would be a great addition to Kern On, yes.

SCarewe

What pairs are you talking about?

SCarewe

Can somebody please ban this AI spambot?

SCarewe

Can't tell whether AI-generated spam or AI-generated prompt for AI-generated spam

SCarewe

Kern On is not an AI tool.

SCarewe

The link to the forum still points to the first generation of this forum. You might want to update the link to point to forum3.

SCarewe

What do you mean by "you have them kerned"? Do you have them set as models? That is the only way to force pairs to be included. The internal treatment of priorities of feature-reached glyphs is not accessible to edit by users. You can try your luck by editing the pair_frequencies.txt to gi...

SCarewe

This is probably very late to be of any help, but have you considered setting a "Link Metrics with Master" custom parameter for your italic masters? Then the spacing and kerning will be copied 1:1 (Kern On also recognises this).

SCarewe

Why do you want to kern this combination? Where does it occur?

SCarewe

I entirely admit that none of these arguments brought forward are rational from a practical point of view. As you pointed out, you're catering to opinions instead of entirely rational end users. That is, I'm afraid, something we can't really change. Concerning your point about interpolated small pai...

SCarewe

Gosh, that was extremely rapid. Thanks for the update! I really didn't mean to pressure you into straying from your principles, you have your good reasons. What I mean by noise: tiny kerning pairs that are generated by Kern On for pairs that usually shouldn't require kerning, and thus perturb anybod...

SCarewe

(I still don't understand how to properly quote in this forum) > Sorry, I disagree. I’d rather keep a 3-unit value for /n/o then a -60-unit value for /questiondown.case/W. Then this is probably the crux of the matter, as it is a matter of opinion. I can see good arguments for both opinions, as voice...

SCarewe

I really do understand where you're coming from, especially about (supposed) space saving by omitting small class kerning pairs. This might be my own imagination, but can I ask what Kern On does if it finds that a class kerning pair in all masters is very small? Does it omit it? If so, what is the t...

SCarewe

I would also like to add my mustard to the discussion, since this is something that comes up regularly when I work on client projects. My main question is why .case variants are treated as less important than their normal counterparts. I would expect them to be treated with the same importance. Are ...

SCarewe

I don't know what has happened, but starting Glyphs and Kern On this morning made this behaviour go away. I really don't know what happened, I haven't touched the file and restarting Glyphs and Kern On previously didn't fix the issue. So I'm sorry I can't provide any test file anymore.

SCarewe

The expected result is that /i.sc /h.sc is kerned the exact same as /h.sc /h.sc (my model pair, set to 0), since the shapes are perfectly identical. However, /i.sc /h.sc receives +13 from Kern On for no apparent reason.

SCarewe

What is going on here? I have a model /h.sc/h.sc, /i.sc has exactly the same left and right shapes, the spacing is identical, the special spacing group is set to smallcaps for both... What's more, this only occurs in one master, not the others. In the other masters, Kern On correctly recognises that...

SCarewe

If I'm not mistaken, non-existing pairs are counted as 0, if there is a pair defined in GSMaster.userData["KernOnModels"]. So, in order to start from scratch, you need to delete the user data keys belonging to Kern On. There is a mekkablue script that allows you to see and subsequently del...

SCarewe

I'm running into a sort of counter-issue: I have a /percent glyph made up of: /_zero-percent-top, /fraction and /_zero-percent (not the best namings, don't blame me). They are, of course, auto-aligned. Kern On correctly autokerns /_zero-percent-top with /fraction, but not /fraction with /_zero-perce...

SCarewe

You can set the left to "No Kerning" and leave the right side at "Standard Kerning". Is that what you are looking for?

SCarewe

Yes, I understand about kerning non-exporting glyphs, which makes sense. However, if glyphs like _shoulder are exclusively used in a glyph where they are connected using #exit and #entry anchors, why should they be autokerned in the first place? Is there any development on the issue with kerning acc...

SCarewe

Hello again. I've found KO now even kerns non-exporting components (such as _shoulder) against each other when I use them in a glyph (for example, I use _shoulder twice in a row in /m). The old behaviour was a lot better. Is there no other way of determining which composites need to be kerned?

SCarewe

Sorry. I meant 3249 and 3251. The latest 3.2.

Concerning the Unicodes: ask our client, I told him it's a ridiculous idea ;)

And it's not only the Hmacron, but a whole plethora of accented uppercase. Even Aacute, if I'm not mistaken. I'll check again tomorrow.

SCarewe

Odd. I tested in 3149 and 3151 and the result is the same. For Hmacron I get: ``` Hmacron hasAlignedWidth 1 <GSComponent "H" x=0.0 y=0.0> shouldAttach 0 <GSComponent "macroncomb.case" x=178.0 y=0.0> shouldAttach 0 ``` So, for some reason, you get shouldAttach True while I get Fal...

SCarewe

Hello, as per the changelog, the autokerning of glyphs involved in composites is fixed, which is great. However, I opened up Kern On on a document and found that accented glyphs were now also autokerned. Oddly, this is only the case for accented capitals (with .case accents). as well as for gcommaac...

SCarewe

Hi Tim, just since I have been running into this myself for quite a while, I wanted to make sure that this is something you have noticed (and, maybe, fixed): When I start Kern On on a new font, every single glyph is set to "Standard Kerning". No special spacing groups are set automatically...

SCarewe

Thanks for the offer, that's very kind, but it's not too urgent. I have simply set the affected pair to auto in all masters.

Thanks to you and Georg for getting to the bottom of this!

SCarewe

Has there been any progress on this? It would be really great to be able to properly determine kerning-affected composites like Kern On wants to. I currently need to manually set auto pairs.

SCarewe

Thanks for taking a look at my file and the quick response.

Reminder to myself to always triple-check even the most basic things. I had set special spacing for my /fl (all ligatures) by mistake.

SCarewe

Hello, I have run into a very strange behaviour: Why is my /fl–/o kerned differenclty than /l–/o?

Kern On claims that there is a huge range within which /fl–/o can be kerned, although it is very fixed on /l–/o (since I have /n–/o as a model already).

What is going on here?

SCarewe

Hello, I'm not sure this is intentional (I hope it isn't): I opened two files and started kerning in one. Somehow, the special spacing groups weren't set properly (Kern On seems not to do this anymore, odd), so I selected "Sync kerning types from...". After syncing the kerning types (=copy...

SCarewe

Did you define pairs like n–o as a model in Kern On? Kern On will leave these pairs as exceptions for compatibility reasons.

SCarewe

This is currently not possible from within Kern On, no. What you can do is run Kern On and then run a simple script that rounds all kerning values to units of 50.

SCarewe

Hello, I seem to remember this was a feature introduced with some update a while back: glyph combinations that are used as components in other glyphs (such as /one.dnom /fraction in /onehalf) were kerned by Kern On, regardless of importance on the pair frequency list. In my example, I have /careof a...

SCarewe

This comes close to what I currently do. My workflow is: - Set the italic master to autokern from Roman. - Open (as text) all models from the Roman in the Italic master. - Wait a second for Kern On to kern all pairs in the text view. - Run a script that: -- 1. Deletes the "KernOnAutokernFrom&qu...

SCarewe

Still running into this issue, in a different form: Adjusting the value with arrow up/down is not possible, the text field is quit.

SCarewe

Hello, is there some efficient way of setting a master to autokern and then "expand" the kerning in such a way that the models from the reference master are set in the autokerned master, but with the values from the autokerning process? Let's say I have an italic master I set to autokern f...

SCarewe

I can confirm this. The changed kerning value is displayed for a split second in the text view, but then is reset. Only once I release the slider, the kerning value is properly displayed in the text view.

This makes kerning with the slider virtually useless.

SCarewe

Hello, I am running into a rather frustrating issue. Why is my X being kerned so loosely on the right, while it is not kerned on the left? I first saw this when I set the master to autokern from another file, so I set up models manually. The issue persists, also after restarting Glyphs, Kern On, the...

SCarewe

That sounds very reasonable, especially considering you are working on a serif design. You can control the amount of generated pairs by adjusting the kB setting in the Kern On dialogue.

SCarewe

I tried up to 64k, to no avail. What I don't understand is how my editing the pair frequencies list didn't achieve anything, maybe I'm missing something.

SCarewe

Hello, I am running into a very frustrating issue with fraction kerning (which, to be honest, has been a recurring problem for Kern On). In the current version, I am unable to generate fraction kerning, despite the OT feature being there, me having set models, and the autokerning also working while ...

SCarewe

Hi, I am still wondering why this happens pretty much constantly in italics. I am getting +2 on the most basic pairs such as ll, HH, ln, etc. when I set it to autokern from the roman masters. The spacing is identical, there is no way to remedy this apart from copying all models from the roman and ad...

SCarewe

Hello again, once more I am needing to kern the space. My current solution is to simply set space – [C, T, U, V, Y] as an independent pair and then run Kern On. Problem is: Every time I re-run Kern On, I need to remove the kerning exception and turn it into class kerning, so that ĆČÇ... are also ker...

SCarewe

As someone who does kerning repetitively every few moments, I have very much grown dependant on the keyboard shortcut. While Ctrl+K might not be obligatory, it is still extremely useful. An option to customise the keyboard shortcut might be a good idea.

SCarewe

Yes, I would definitely only apply this upon finalisation. I use the small kerning pairs generated on the fly in order to fix spacing issues, I wouldn't want to miss those.

By the way, any plans for a separate spacing tool? In harmonious conjunction with KO, that would be the ultimate game-changer.

SCarewe

Coming back to this. I would really appreciate being able to define a lower limit of units for kerning pairs. Example: I often have simple obliques of roman masters, where I use the Autokern from... feature. Almost always, this results in wrong kerning pairs in the italics. I might have the model l–...

SCarewe

You can copy the data that Kern On writes. The models are stored in each master's user data:
master.userData["KernOnModels"]
and so on. You can similarly find the other relevant dictionary keys. Don't forget to copy the kerning (exceptions) as well.

SCarewe

Yes, this font has numr and dnom letters (don't ask me why, the only use-case I was able to discern was writing Vème siècle in French, with ème being in numerators). Anyway, with the update, this works as expected now. Same for fraction kerning. Thanks a lot! I will very happily finally retire that ...

SCarewe

Hello, apologies for me belated reply. I admit your questions stumped me and I don't quite know what to answer. I hadn't thought about this question enough and simply based my instinct not to kern them off the fact that I (like most others) make my maths operators tabular. So, instinctively, I would...

SCarewe

Hello, I am running into an odd issue. I have my numr glyphs set up as components (align=3), so exact same sidebearings as my dnom glyphs. Kern On wants to kern my numr differently (slightly tighter) than my dnom. Why? I have them both in the same special spacing group. Saving and re-opening the fil...

SCarewe

Hello, have you had any time to consider this further? Especially for maths operators. I don't quite understand why Kern On kerns maths operators amongst each other in the first place, or is this just a by-product of them being set to some type of kerning in the first place? I did simply add them to...

SCarewe

Things like this can often occur when components shift. Glyphs is not very good at updating the alignment automatically and re-calculating the sidebearings. Rather annoyingly, you have to open up all glyphs in text mode (just select all glyphs in font view and hit Cmd+T). Then step through all maste...

SCarewe

Without knowing for sure the real reason for this, I am assuming this is due to the principle Kern On follows when kerning: Significance in real-world application. Meaning, Kern On will not kern every pair under the sun, but prioritise kerning pairs that actually occur in the real world (based on hu...

SCarewe

Hi Rosalie, concerning fraction kerning (which is still not automatically done by KO for some reason), I wrote a script:
https://github.com/eweracs/glyphs-scrip ... ter/KernOn
It's called Set Fraction Autopairs.

SCarewe

What happens if you add a model for, for example, hyphen/quoteright?

SCarewe

I still don't see why you care about these cases. Who will ever run into them?

SCarewe

Sorry, my honest impression was that it's been like this for at least two versions, my apologies if my impression was rather skewed. Thanks a lot for fixing this!

SCarewe

Hello, I have been running into an issue since a few Kern On versions: The warning that pops up every now and then about "(glyph)(glyph) seems tighter than (glyph)(glyph)", which I can either check or "Ignore", pops up again every single time I add a new model. Previously, if I c...

SCarewe

You essentially don't have control, no. What might reassure you is that, with all the data crunching of hundreds of millions of letter combinations from real-world applications, Kern On has a pretty solid idea of what will actually appear in the real world. Ask yourself: which user will actually, se...

SCarewe

Hi, depending on the design of the master (script, glyph count, sans, serif, heavy, thin, detailed, simple...) I usually get very decent results with around 100 models per master for a Latin sans, most often with quite a few less for a heavy master, as the shapes will be a lot more similar in regard...

SCarewe

Tim Ahrens wrote: > If you select 64kB or less then you should not get the error, so something > is going wrong somewhere. Hmm, I get this error all the time, even using 36kB. I suspected this kB limit would be per master, so each exported instance essentially cannot have a kerning table larger than...

SCarewe

The A–Y "model" you have set in your screenshot is not a model, it's set to Independent.

SCarewe

This happens when the kerning size is too big. You can adjust the kB size or add the custom parameter Use Extension Kerning to your Font Info.

The number of pairs is (somewhat directly) related to the kB size, 17k for 64kB doesn't seem to outlandish.

SCarewe

While I cannot give you a professional reasoning as to why or whether KO needs to remove all groups, I would say the main reason is simply the logic behind KO, that the only important thing for the kerning are the models, and the kerning is calculated "live" (also in edit view, all the tim...

SCarewe

Hello, Since I am planning to work on a Cyrillic extension of a project, I was wondering what the implications are of using Kern On on a font that already is "finished" in its Latin state. In order to avoid text reflow and general changes to the existing font metrics/kerning, is it necessa...

SCarewe

Hello, First off, many thanks for the great Autokern from Master feature. I am aware that this is the first version with this feature, but I would still like to suggest some things that have bugged me. When setting a master to be autokerned from another source, Kern On deletes all models done up unt...

SCarewe

Yes, I realise all those steps are a rather daunting thing to tackle with Kern On... If, somehow on the horizon, it was possible, that would be wonderful, of course. My current "solution" was to write a quick script that copied the kerning values for /u against [T, V, W Y] (and their deriv...

SCarewe

That sounds good. Thank you!

SCarewe

Hello, I am using the built-in transfer models functionality. After selecting a source master, I get this message: "Some pairs already exist in this master. Would you like to keep or update the values from the other master?". What does this mean? "Keep", meaning I keep the curren...

SCarewe

Hello, I have a client that specifically is requesting kerning against the space (and I would generally agree that kerning against the space is a good idea, for cases like /o T/) Adding independents for all space-glyph and glyph-space pairs is possible, but somewhat defeats the purpose of Kern On (e...

SCarewe

@claegg Are you aware of the HT Letterspacer? I have been using it for quite some time now and it works very well with Kern On. Of course, the principles behind the Letterspacer are somewhat simpler than those of Kern On, but it still works very well. I made a quick graphic interface for setting up ...

SCarewe

Yes, expanding Kern On into a spacing tool is an idea that has been bounced around here a few times. Definitely a big interest in it! Personally, I would prefer it as a standalone tool, to use before moving to Kern On. How the model logic should work is an important question, but I guess those might...

SCarewe

Hello, thanks a lot for your thoughts. A special spacing manager would be great for (optional) granular control. The automatic detection works very well so far, but for cases like the one outlined above, more specific controls would be very useful. I will try your suggestion, for the time being, it'...

SCarewe

Hello. I have come across a question that doesn't seem immediately resolvable to me with Kern On. For math operators, I want to set them to No Kerning among each other, so that no math operators receive kerning against other math operators. But I still want things like 7+7 to be kerned. So, ideally,...

SCarewe

Hi Tim, thank you very much for your extremely detailed explanation. My neanderthal instinct just told me less kerning pairs = better. Quite obviously it is not like that and Kern On has all your knowledge baked in accordingly. Thanks!

SCarewe

Yes, I know. But the original point was to tell Kern On that we don't want small kerning pairs in the first place, so KO can skip these pairs and generate more pairs instead. That's why a simple manual entry would be very useful.

SCarewe

Hello, sorry for not getting back to you on this. I have been trying to find the right balance for Kern On to kern a font with a sensible balance of kerning pairs and pair size. Today, for instance, I set the file size to 6kB, but found that Kern On was still kerning pairs at ±2 units, which I don't...

SCarewe

Hello, in order to have Kern On autokern your pairs, you need to add them to the pair_frequencies.txt file (which can be found if you open the plugin in the Finder, click "Show Package Contents" and navigate to Contents/Resources/ Add your pairs and give them an arbitrary number that puts ...

SCarewe

Hi Tim, I have been writing these scripts mostly for foundry-internal use, just as we see need in our workflow. Things like copying zero models to smallcaps or from numbers to small figures isn't something I think needs to be in Kern On itself. The idea is also, with scripts like Print Master Models...

SCarewe

Hello, KernOnSpecialSpacing (glyph-level userData) describes the spacing group assigned to each side of a glyph. So, for example, your tabular figures will have "L: NoKerning, R: NoKerning" set as their values. Or "L: smallcaps, R: smallcaps" for your smallcaps, you get the idea....

SCarewe

Hello, yes, this is possible. You can copy, edit, and write the models and values for any file. The models are stored in each master's userData as a simple list. Read these and their kerning values from the font kerning, then merge the two lists. Should be a very short and easy script. If you need h...

SCarewe

Good afternoon, In addition to limit kerning by file size and prioritising pairs by frequency, I find it would make a lot of sense to be able to set a lower threshold of kerning values bewlo which KO shouldn't kern. Our current production workflow is based around the way KO limits kerning by file si...

SCarewe

Hello, I am currently kerning a project with an italic which is essentially just slanted with minor optical corrections on curves. Having made around 240 models, I am desperately trying to figure out a way to transfer models including their values to my italic file. As each file has five masters (al...

SCarewe

Hello, thank you very much for your thoughts! Regarding your last point: I personally think that would make a lot of sense. The more that I am typing, deleting and re-typing any response, I realise I have ever less to add to it. Thanks for coming up with such a straightforward and clean idea!

SCarewe

Alright, Entwarnung. Slight miscommunication between colleagues :) It appeared not to be kerned because the kerning proof texts included combinations that simply don't exist in Vietnamese. They are usually kerned because glyphs like v and w were put into the same group, so it just appeared like kern...

SCarewe

Hello, we are running into some issues with multiscript font projects. Specifically, we are producing a Latin typeface with Cyrillic and Vietnamese and finding that KernOn virtually doesn't kern Vietname at all – which is understandable, of course, as it occurs very rarely in Latin texts. It makes p...

SCarewe

Hello! Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation, that's very helpful to know! I tested again with 1.06 and I still run into the same issue. If I set g-comma to something that looks decent to me, the contradicting model is mentioned to be n-comma. The threshold below which KO decides to kick out on...

SCarewe

Hello, as mentioned above, it was due to my own stupidity, again. I had deleted all vertical metrics from one master. All good now :)

SCarewe

Hello, G3 crashes when I start Kern On on a file that I was working with up until half an hour ago. At some point, re-starting KO simply started crashing G3 and now I can't continue working on the file. Any info I can supply to troubleshoot this? Edit: Somehow, I managed to delete all font metrics. ...

SCarewe

Hello, I am coming across an issue more and more concerning the specific combination g, – KO wants to add a ton of positive kerning between g and comma, which I can understand if the shapes below the baseline are considered the same as the ones above. Tightening this as a model gives KO massive prob...

SCarewe

Sent you my working file. Thank you very much for your time!

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